David Bazan Article

[unhappybirthday]

Or should they just give up and wash their hands?

I think we are looking at this in two different ways. Because the above is not what I was implying.
I thought Bazan was just like any other person, expressing thoughts from his life and sharing what he has learned. Why is it that when he does this he there are concerns and prayers? If he is at peace with where he is in his life and with the knowledge he has gained then why can't he just be accepted where he is? That is a really radical idea within religious circles, isn't it? Accepting people as they are. I guess that's why one doesn't often see buddhists and christians "breaking bread" together.

[We Threw Rocks At The Sky]

(unhappy b-day responded before i finished this and said something related, but i thought i'd post it anyway.)

oh, so i'll weigh in here.  i just saw dave about 10 days ago at a small show he did for our school (www.mhgs.edu).  i've seen him play a number of times throughout the past 8 years, and i was struck by how much more at ease he seemed with himself and how genuinely open he was to questions and conversation (probably nearly half the set was q&a -- you gotta know my school). i honestly didn't sense the anger, defensiveness, or finger-pointing that seemed to permeate some of his recent releases pre-CYB.  it was like a burden was lifted off of him.  he put himself out there and welcomed feedback and criticism, which obviously takes a lot of strength and confidence.  

i'm hesitant to relay any of what he actually said for fear of misquoting him and inadvertantly putting words in his mouth, but someone did ask about how this move to agnosticism had affected his family.  (ps the drinking thing seems to be past tense...)  the way he described talking honestly and respectfully with his wife, and the way that he's handled raising his daughter sounded very difficult, yes, but really, really healthy and life-giving.  (some of that comes through a bit in the keyes interview, if i remember right).  

i say all of that to come back around to the issue of praying for him.  obviously, praying is a kind thing to do for someone and i would guess dave would be fine with it.  however, if in that is a subtle message that he's in a bad place and needs to find his way back to a good one, i would challenge it.  (i hear that you may be saying something different than that, le_vainqueur.)  can we handle someone actually becoming healthier and freer by giving up their faith?  (maybe dave would hope [but not pray, probably] that some of us would find freedom in a similar way.)  what if we let it raise the inevitable questions that come with that?  why not? i mean, we're all trying to figure out how to live and what to make of the world, right?  so, while we're praying for dave, maybe we could learn something from him too.  

anyway, none of this is directed at anyone, just to the general response i've seen to his new record and recent interviews.  most christians seem to respond with either "he's full of crap, his questions are immature, it's for attention, what a whiner" (obviously a bit of an exaggeration) or "that's really sad, let's pray for him."  in my opinion, both responses are, at the very least, incomplete.

[le_vainqueur]

however, if in that is a subtle message that he's in a bad place and needs to find his way back to a good one, i would challenge it.  (i hear that you may be saying something different than that, le_vainqueur.)

Correct, I think I'm trying to say essentially the same thing you are.  That's what I try to express by identifying myself in a clarifying statement.  We should all seek truth honestly and humbly by asking tough questions and seeing where that leads us. 

I don't think people should pray "God, show this person that he's wrong," but rather "God help this person find truth."  The latter prayer is only sincere if it is prayed without an assumption of which point of view is correct.  We should all be on that journey regardless of which direction it pulls us. 

[Keithy Huntington]

however, if in that is a subtle message that he's in a bad place and needs to find his way back to a good one, i would challenge it.  (i hear that you may be saying something different than that, le_vainqueur.)

I don't think people should pray "God, show this person that he's wrong," but rather "God help this person find truth."  The latter prayer is only sincere if it is prayed without an assumption of which point of view is correct.  We should all be on that journey regardless of which direction it pulls us.

i agree with that. the thing is... as far as being a christian is concerned... we HAVE found teh truth. the truth is "i am theway, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father, except by me." if you find ANY other way to the father, its NOT truth. its deceit from the devil.

i'm all for finding truth... but as a christian... i feel we have to be careful of how we look. i've known too many people who went out to find truth, and left their faith all together. because they read some anctient manuscript written tby joseph smith or something. and to me (this is just how i see it) thats not finding truth. thats finding a lie, and purchasing it.

as for bazan. i love his music. i love his lyrics. i love his spirit. i have been a fan since 1997 when S/T ep came out. i have been a huge fan of his music ever since. i have seen him prbobaly 7 times since. i saw him on the Achilles Hill tour in dallas at Trees, and would venture to say thats probably one of teh greatests sets and shows ive ever been to in my life. so just to clarify, i am not hating on bazan at all. i love him. but i find it very numbing that someone can say they are finding truth and avoiding the fact that CHRIST is the truth, (and i say that cause i've read several different interviews since his change in direction, and never once have i read him say "i have my questions about god. but i know christ is my saviour and i bring it all to him" if someone has read that, link it for me so i can change my views) and then people who profess christ say "yeah, you know.... thats a decent idea i guess. sounds good to me." when that doesnt line up with scripture.

i dont agree in praying "god, show him my way. cause hes wrong" but if i were to pray for him in my days i would say "god show him the truth as you said in the bible, in a humble honest way." and i dont think theres anything wrong with that prayer, at all.

in conclusion, i dont see evangelizing as the great problem to the growth of our faith. it seems to me we need to learn how to keep our brothers and sisters IN The faith first, before we go out and recruit new members. cause it seems theres way to many people who try Jesus, and then move on after a while.

[The_Ordinary]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the light, no man comes to the Father except through me."

But what exactly is the proper way to do that? Let's accept that statement as a given truth. There are no further instructions after that. Jill might say that the proper way is through regular confessions with the father at the local Catholic church, along with the sacraments and penitence. Joe might think it entails jumping up and down with his hands raised at the tent revival down the street, while Emma might believe her salvation through Jesus lies with sending Paul Crouch her advanced tithe of $450.

So you see, even among Christians, there is debate as to what the truth is. And every Christian (just like every devout Muslim, for example) will claim that his/her version of the truth is absolute truth and any deviance from that is a farce.

What do you think people who have taken the route of Mr. Bazan see in God? A omniscient deity who claims perfection and goodness, yet bestows so little protection on so many in this suffering world. An omnipresent deity who stands by while the innocent are slaughtered at the hands of a tyrannical leader. An omnipotent deity who displays his power through destructive forces of nature and destroys the innocent. And these problems are just supposed to be swept under the rug as part of God's mysterious plan, which we must strive to be aligned with and be sure that we are in the "perfect will of God."

So again I ask, when Jesus says that no one gets to the Father except through him, what route or routes are there? There was no formula here. Perhaps the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is what saves humanity. And if so, kudos to those who can understand and accept it. But to ask me to worship a loving God who will punish me eternally for questioning the logic of that - you've lost me there. I do not know what the truth is. And if Jesus is the truth, as he says he is, then what way am I to approach him?

I guess that means that I, too, am on the outside and need much prayer by those of you inside. But don't worry. My minister's license is from a Baptist church - where "once saved - always saved". So I'm covered.

[Spirit Flyer]

If you love someone you wouldn't want them to have peace of mind about their journey when they're lost. Someone who believes he is lost says, "We should pray for him" and someone who doesn't believe that he is lost doesn't think the other people should pray for him. Jesus is the Truth and you find out about that Truth from the Bible, prayer and church/other Christians. Even though there are different groups who interpret salvation differently doesn't mean there are multiple roads to salvation. I always suspicious of intellectuals who study the biblical texts, but don't believe in Christ. I would question anyone who tells you that they have the truth when they don't start with the Bible.   

[Keithy Huntington]

If you love someone you wouldn't want them to have peace of mind about their journey when they're lost. Someone who believes he is lost says, "We should pray for him" and someone who doesn't believe that he is lost doesn't think the other people should pray for him. Jesus is the Truth and you find out about that Truth from the Bible, prayer and church/other Christians. Even though there are different groups who interpret salvation differently doesn't mean there are multiple roads to salvation. I always suspicious of intellectuals who study the biblical texts, but don't believe in Christ. I would question anyone who tells you that they have the truth when they don't start with the Bible.

Perfectly said! I had a huge rebuttal for the previous post... But I don't want to come off more condemning and judging than I already have so I canned it. 

[KevanA]

Me too. I'm sorry to have caused such a problem. I assure you that my words came from a truly caring and well meaning place. There is only one truth, and that is the truth of Christ and all that can be found in the bible. I have met Dave Bazan and he's one of the nicest guys I've ever met at any show. I truly hope and pray that he finds his way back to Christ. I don't condemn him at all. I Just hope that he regains his faith.

[unhappybirthday]

I'm sorry to have caused such a problem.

I don't see a problem. Your comment (well, I guess it was yours) paved the way for a healthy discussion. It is encouraging to see people with such a vast array of opinions opening up and sharing differences with each other. Something that is functional and important. I don't understand why there is always so much reluctance to dialogue about different religious beliefs.

[le_vainqueur]

I don't understand why there is always so much reluctance to dialogue about different religious beliefs.

I second that sentiment. In a healthy dialogue, everyone wins.

[Spirit Flyer]

I don't understand why there is always so much reluctance to dialogue about different religious beliefs.

I second that sentiment. In a healthy dialogue, everyone wins.

It depends on what you mean by dialogue and healthy. The problem with most "dialogue" concerning two people with differing viewpoints is that there is a zero-sum discussion meaning that if one person wins the other loses. Just because people are talking about something doesn't mean that the talking itself is beneficial. You have to look at what the purpose of the conversation is and if it's not to one up the other person there might be something of value there, but not necessarily. Healthy is a vague term as well that means different things to different people. 

[The_Ordinary]

It depends on what you mean by dialogue and healthy. The problem with most "dialogue" concerning two people with differing viewpoints is that there is a zero-sum discussion meaning that if one person wins the other loses. Just because people are talking about something doesn't mean that the talking itself is beneficial. You have to look at what the purpose of the conversation is and if it's not to one up the other person there might be something of value there, but not necessarily. Healthy is a vague term as well that means different things to different people. 

Were you really tired when you wrote this? What's your point?

[le_vainqueur]

It depends on what you mean by dialogue and healthy.

I would define a healthy dialogue as one in which each party honestly and sincerely considers the alternative viewpoints. 

[dennis]

Great articles, thanks for posting them.

Here is another good one.

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/10/28/david_bazan/